In this special edition of Life on the Margins, we probe deeply into the case of Manuel Ellis, a Black Tacoma man who died under suspicious circumstances while in police custody on March 3rd, 2020. The investigation into his death was seemingly dormant until it roared into the public spotlight this week after Washington Gov. Jay Inslee demanded a full investigation into the 33-year-old’s death. Since then, video footage of his fateful encounter with police, along with an audio recording of him saying the words “I can’t breathe,” have led the mayor of Tacoma to call for the firing of the four officers involved in the case. We discuss the case and hear directly from the Ellis family, about their hard-fought battle for the truth. We also discuss how it relates to the national unrest currently raging around police accountability. #LifeOnTheMargins #SeattleProtest #TacomaProtest #JusticeForManny #JusticeForManuelEllis
For more coverage of the Manuel Ellis story follow :
South Seattle Emerald // https://southseattleemerald.com/
Life on the Margins Podcast // https://lifeonthemarginspodcast.com/
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Marcus Harrison Green is the publisher and co-founder of the South Seattle Emerald, current columnist for Crosscut, a former reporter with the Seattle Times, a former Reporting Fellow with YES! Magazine, a past board member of the Western Washington Chapter of the Society of Professional Journalists and a recipient of Crosscut’s Courage Award for Culture. Growing up in South Seattle, he experienced first-hand the neglect of news coverage in the area by local media, which taught him the value of narratives. After an unfulfilling stint working in the investment world in his twenties, Marcus returned to his community determined to tell its true story, which led him to start the South Seattle Emerald. He was named one of Seattle's most influential people by Seattle Magazine in 2016.
Enrique Cerna is a veteran journalist who has worked in Seattle media for 45 years. Cerna worked for 23 years at Cascade Public Media’s KCTS 9 and retired in February 2018 from his role as senior correspondent. He anchored current affairs programs, moderated statewide political debates, interviewed major newsmakers, produced and reported stories throughout Washington State and for national PBS programs. Cerna has earned nine regional Emmy awards and numerous other journalistic honors. He is a member of the National Association of Television Arts and Sciences Northwest Chapter Silver Circle for his work as a television professional. Cerna is active in the community. He has served on numerous non-profit boards over the years. In March, he was appointed by Governor Jay Inslee to the Washington State University Board of Regents. ____________________________________________________________
Produced In Partnership With :
Town Hall Seattle (https://townhallseattle.org/)
The South Seattle Emerald (https://southseattleemerald.com/)
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Executive Producer + Host // Marcus Harrison Green
Executive Producer + Host // Enrique Cerna
Executive Producer + Host // Jini Palmer
Additional Production Support Provided By // Hans Anderson & JEFFSCOTTSHAW
Music Provided By // Draze "The Hood Ain't The Same" // http://www.thedrazeexperience.com/about-draze/
- On March 3rd, a Black man died in our custody. And this is tragic.
- His name is Manuel Ellis. His death has been ruled a homicide by the Pierce County Medical Examiner. He died in handcuffs while being restrained on the ground by Tacoma police.
- It's unreadable.
- I can't breathe.
- As our nation contends with the anguish and outrage over the police-involved death of George Floyd, the family of Manuel Ellis is demanding answers, and so is Tacoma's mayor, Victoria Woodards.
- Cannot imagine the pain that continues with the Ellis family's loss. But I do know that our community wants both answers and justice. And so do I. And so does this entire council and administration.
- Next, the live and death of Manuel Ellis. This is "Life on the Margins." ♪ I born in the Central District ♪ ♪ Raised in the south scene. ♪ ♪ I'm a home-grown kid, yep ♪ ♪ 206 Living ♪ ♪ Used to play Flyers Up when I lived up on Union ♪ ♪ Pushed it out to walk us ♪ ♪ And eventually the Kenyon's ♪
- Welcome to "Life On The Margins." I'm Enrique Cerna. On Sunday night May 31st, my co-host, Marcus Harrison Green, met with the family of Manuel Ellis to talk about his life and the circumstances surrounding his death. Marcus joins me now to talk about that conversation and what he learned about Manuel Ellis leading up to his death. Marcus, welcome. This story has gone from the family just trying to get some answers turning to you at "The South Seattle Emerald" to help them tell the story and try to find some answers. Now it's become national news. The Tacoma mayor has come out saying she wants the officers involved fired. The governor's come out saying this is a priority. Senator Patty Murray has come out and also has gotten involved looking into the case. It's just amazing that they couldn't get any attention, and now it's taken off like wildfire.
- Right, yeah, literally when I talked to them, spoke with them May 31st, that Sunday, I went over to Marcia and Monet's house. Marcia is Manuel's mother. And Monet Mixon is Manuel's sister. They had just been exceptionally frustrated because over these last three months, there had been no communication. Not just from media, but they claim that there had been no communication from the Pierce County Sheriff, who was investigating this case, and there had been no communication from the City of Tacoma, even though they had reached out and had tried to get some attention. And now, I mean, just recently, I just read the New York Times this morning, and this story written by Mike Baker, who did an excellent job, I have to say, is everywhere now. And I mean, obviously, it's one of the causes of that is because of the heightened tensions that we have now around police brutality. That was a cause of the George Floyd protest.
- Right, and there some similarities, too, with this case and what happened to George Floyd. There wasn't a knee on his neck but he still had--
- No but there was certainly three words that have unfortunately become the refrain of dying black men, as a friend pointed out to me. Three words that were used by George Floyd, that were used by Eric Garner, that were used by Manuel Ellis on March 3rd. And the three words were, "I can't breathe."
- Right, which you can hear in a police scanner, as the police are trying to communicate with, all part of the process of what was going on there.
- Right.
- Let's talk about how this story came to you, because that was interesting.
- Yeah, so Friday, May 29th, I'm looking at my inbox for story tips, as I usually do in the morning, I get this email from a concerned community member who says that they live in Tacoma. They explain to me that this man, 33-year-old Manuel Ellis, was killed while in police custody, and there hasn't been too much attention paid to him, even as these protests are erupting across the country for George Floyd. So I immediately do a Google search. I typed in Manuel Ellis's name. I find two reports by the "Tacoma News Tribune" about it, and it's pretty much just a cut and dry, at least how it was reported, it's sort of a cut and dry, this man encountered police, he died. It was very vague on how he died, and what happened exactly. And that was pretty much it. So then, I immediately respond back to the person, and I asked them to put me in contact with the family, which he does immediately. And Monet, Monet Mixon, Manuel's sister immediately reaches back out to me and she says, "Can you come and speak with my entire family on Sunday?" So I do. I go out there in Tacoma. I bring my photographer, Jeff Scott Shaw, who is also the wonderful producer of the show, I need to mention. And we go out there and we spend two hours, about two, two and a half hours, sitting with family. And they talked to me about Manuel. They talked to me about their interactions with the police department, which has pretty much been nothing at this point. They said that they had to actually learn about Manuel's death from the Tacoma News Tribune reporter. You know, the first people who told them about Manuel's death was not even the police department. And in the span of, from March 4th to May 31st, over three months, they had had very little communication with the medical examiner, the police department, or elected officials in Tacoma. And they just wanted to know the truth, because they knew absolutely nothing. The thing about it was though, that they said, and initially when they heard how he died, which and the police account was that two Tacoma police offers encountered him banging on the hood of a car. That somehow escalated into them needing to restrain him, and he supposedly was uncooperative, and attacked the two police officers and so forth. It somehow escalated into the point where he no longer was able to breath, and died while in custody. They said that they automatically, automatically, knew that that was not true. At least that's what they felt.
- And they describe him as someone that was not violent. Even, not only the family, but even friends say that that was not his type of personality. He had issues, there no doubt about that, right?
- Right, I mean, just for sake of background, he had had some issues with drugs in his past. But at of current, he was living in a clean and sober house. He had given his life over to Christianity. He went to church every single day. This was according to his landlord, Kimberly Mays, who I also spoke with. She literally said that he was a fun-loving guy who would not hurt a fly. He didn't have a violent bone in his body, and as a matter of fact, so the night that he went out and it ended up being a fateful night for him on March 3rd, encountering these police, the very night he went out, he wrote this list of his goals. And there are the top three things. One was to eventually move to Seattle. Number two was to call his son, his 11-year-old son more. And number three was to stay sober. He writes that list, and then he goes out for his, what is a routine for him, was to go out and get snacks over at the 7-Eleven. And then he, of course, ends up encountering police, and never coming back.
- In talking to the family, they were very open about the issues that he had. They were also very open about how this loss has really impacted them. His brother, Matthew, talked to you. Let's listen to what Matthew had to say about his brother and the loss that he's feeling.
- My brother, he was a comedian. He was just always happy, always told jokes. Always talked about you. Always said what was on his mind. He loved his family. He loved me and my sister. We grew up in a household that had issues, but he did the best he could to make it out of it. He struggled with a lot of things, but at the end of the day he always called me and said, "I love you brother." When Kobe passed away, he emailed me that, "I just want to tell you I love you. "We used to watch Kobe together and this hurts, "and I just want to tell you I love you." He loved my son and my daughters. He loved them. Every birthday, I could always expect a call from my brother. My birthday just passed on the 15th, and that was pretty hard--
- Absolutely.
- Thank you. It was pretty hard just to know that I wasn't gonna get that call from my brother, or a text from my brother. But, my brother was just a loving person. He never would hurt a fly. We grew up together, obviously, and we would get in trouble, fights, and never once did he put his hands on me. He was a gentle, gentle person.
- Very gentle.
- And I have nothing but positive to say about him. And as we grew older, we kind of separated a little bit. But whenever he needed something I would always be there. Whenever I needed to talk to him, he was always there for me.
- So, was it less, big brother, little brother, and just more--
- Yeah, more, yeah, we were just like we didn't argue. I was very quiet, and he was more just like--
- "I'm here!" More outgoing. He was the life of the party, basically.
- That's it.
- Taking girls.
- When he would see me like with some, if he seen me in these pants right here, he'd probably talk about
- Yeah 'cause you're out of order.
- I got a pair of pants like that. So we were complete opposites but after we got older, he just, it was more of just like, we were just one, just one, you know what I mean? And now that he's gone, I genuinely feel like a piece of me is missing.
- That's right.
- That's so right.
- And I hurt for my brother every single day. I lay in bed at 5:00 in the morning just thinking about my brother, like just the things that I could've said to him when he called me that night that he passed away. And so, yeah, my brother was, he was a gentle person, he was the best person that I could ever say in life, and I will truly miss him for the rest of my life. And no one can tell me anything differently about that. But it's what happened that night.
- The family was really trying to do what they could to help Manny, as he was trying to rebuild his life. They talked about how much he loved his children, and how he loved his family, and the cousins, and all of these things. He had issues, yes, he had issues. His brother also talked about how he really wanted to help Manny get his life back in order. And here's what he had to say about a conversation they had regarding kind of a future plan for Manny.
- We sat down with him and asked him, and it's crazy that that's the last time I saw him. But we sat down with him and asked him what he wanted to do. What's his plans, for in the future.
- We had a family meeting, is what all of us.
- Five year, I wanted to know his five-year plan, and he sat down and he told me he wanted to open up a landscape business. He wanted to do all that. And so, I told him, "Get in church. "Get your life together, "and I will fund your truck, "I will help you with your business, "I will help you get clientele," and all that. And he just smiled. And so, I just remember that smile. And I just knew that he was gonna do it. And when I left, I gave him a hug, told him I loved him, and last time I seen my brother.
- In listening to the conversation that you had with the family, it's clear that they are still in so much pain. They miss him. This was a guy who was, they said a lot of fun, and he was a caring brother and son, wasn't he?
- Yeah, and a loving uncle, as well. His sister Monet talks about how much of a father figure many times, and big kid, best friend, to her three children, who he would look after many times when she was working. And for them, again, all they continue to look for is the truth, right? And they can't have any type of closure until they get that. Prior to the Governor Inslee stating that he wanted a full investigation, they had just been left in the dark. And I'll tell you this, Enrique, something that was sort of startling to me was that when I reached out to the Ellis family the day that Governor Inslee announced that he wanted an full investigation into exactly what happened with Manny, I called them up for a response and they said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Oh, didn't you hear what the Governor said?" They said, "No." And then I said, "Did you hear about "what the medical examiner found?" and they said, "No." And grant you, the medical examiner came back with the report, I believe it was May 11th. When I most recently spoke to the family, it was June 3rd, and they had had no communication with the Pierce County Medical Examiner's office telling them exactly what happened.
- This is exactly what's been happening all the way through here. No communication with them. And the fact that it's taken so long for them to get any response whatsoever. I mean, he died on March 3rd. Let's listen now to the conversation that you had with his mother and her reaction when she heard about what happened, and the questions that immediately came into her mind.
- He said, "Just remember, mom, I really love you. "And, you know, I just, I love you. I really love you, mom." So, I kept, I had a puzzling deal, okay. That was fine, so we hung up, and he went about his way. And then the next day, I got the call from my daughter, And I was on this floor rolling around like I had lost my mind because I knew that was . And then after that, I kept wondering why would he go out to get snacks? Why was he gonna go out? After that I learned later from the person that ran the house, he was in a clean and sober house, she said that Manny went out every night and got snacks.
- Yeah, it was a routine for him.
- That was a routine for him. Every night he went out to go get snacks. And then he would come back. And when I got a call from the detective the next day, I asked him, I said, "Well, what happened?" "Well, he died while he was in police custody." "Well, why? "What happened?" He said, "Well, you know, they said that he had hit on their car." And knowing my son, my son is an, he is impulsive, and he was feeling good that night about the Lord, you know, being and doing something for him. So he probably said, "Hallelujah," and hit the car. But just nothing major or mean. I wasn't there, but I know my son, you know? I said, "Well something's still don't seem right." Why would they arrest him for hitting the car? Or, you know, banging? And that's the way he put it. "He put his hand on the car." That's the way the detective put it.
- That was Marcia Ellis, the mother of Manuel Ellis. It's really tough to listen to that too, because just the pain of a mom knowing that her son had died, and then suddenly all the questions. "This doesn't sound like my son." Boy, it's tough to listen to the pain there.
- It's extremely tough, and even sitting down speaking with them, I know we didn't play everything, but there were certainly times that it was hard to have that journalistic indifference, if you will. Especially knowing that this is another Black man who has been killed under very suspicious circumstances in an interaction with police officers. And I couldn't help but think, to be honest with you, and I'm a Black man. I have three brothers who are Black. I have two nephews who are Black. And you're a father of a brown-skinned man.
- Boy, yeah.
- It's, you know, just imagining they could have been walking down a street, and who knows, right?
- I've had the talk with my boy, you know? He's not a boy anymore, he's 31 years old. I still have the talk with him because I'm concerned about him having an interaction with the police. He's a brown-skinned kid. And I've always told him, I said, "Just listen, don't react. "Give 'em your license. "Follow the procedure. "And just do not react. "Do not insight. "Just use some common sense." And it's sad that I have to have that conversation. It's sad that you've had to have that conversation. Okay, let's move on here, or we're gonna roll down a whole different area.
- Yes we will.
- So let's talk about the night of his death, and what we know. Listening to Ed Troyer, who's a spokesperson for the Pierce County Sheriff's Department, he makes it sound very cut and dry that it was Manny that instigated, and that the officers reacted. And there was nothing unusual, but that they had to restrain him because he was acting out, and that he had actually tried to attack one of the officers. But now some video has come forward. And of course you can't see the beginning in that video of what the encounter was, but you do see the officers, they are forcibly working on him. And in fact, it looks like one officer is punching him pretty, pretty hard.
- Yeah, they're wailing, literally wailing away at the man. And grant you, yes, we don't see what transpired directly before, but I mean, my goodness, they're just using the man as a punching bag, at least in the video snippet that was recorded by a woman with Tacoma Action Collective, who still hasn't been identified. But we do know that--
- Right, it appears that she just had been, had come up on this scene, and you can see her very upset, coming out and saying, trying to get them to stop, and what are you doing, you know, let him up.
- Exactly, exactly, and I will say we should step back a little bit and just talk a little, as you said, talk a little bit more about that night. And so that beating and that interaction was taking place around 11:30 p.m. the night of March 3rd. Now, Marcia, Manny's mother told me, and other people obviously corroborated it in his family, that Manny gives this phone call to Marcia. And her and Manny are talking. It's a Zoom call, so she says that she can see him. She says that with his past history, and so forth, she knows when he's been taking drugs, or inebriated, or what have you. She said that he was perfectly fine, perfectly calm, okay, had all of his faculties about him. Was very joyous, as she was talking about. He wanted to share the good word of what God had done for him in his life. He tells her right before he gets off, he tells her he loves her. She tells him that she loves him. And she thinks everything is fine and well. After that phone call, according to his landlord, Kimberly Mays, Manny talks about how great the Lord is, and how great the love he has for his family, and for God. And he goes out to 7-Eleven, as he does every single night, it's his ritual to go get some snacks. I'm not sure what happened between that time, but all we know from him going to the 7-Eleven to get the snacks and encountering the police, but we do know what happened after.
- Yeah, he never came back. He died in the hands of the police. Let's listen to a conversation that you had with his sister, Monet Mixon, who believes that this is a cover-up. She's actually the one that has really pushed hard to get some attention to his case. And she's really been the force behind looking for answers.
- It's like a nightmare. Just I don't even know how to describe the feeling. But, ever since he passed away, I feel like I can't breathe, literally. Like I'm always taking deep breaths, or not breathing enough 'cause it's like I, it's something that like it's constantly going on in my head. It's still hard to wrap my head around what happened to him. And then for, just to kind of see it in our own face, like what's going on, and I'm questioning, "Should I be feeling like this? "Should I be thinking this?" at the same time I'm trying to breathe over not being able to call my brother or text him. Just 'cause he's not here anymore. But then to add onto everything else is like--
- Obviously, you've put together a campaign to get more attention to what happened, and just to get down to the bottom of everything. Why do you think that there has been such radio silence about this, but at these last times--
- They don't want people to know. That's just what it is. They don't want people to know what happened. 'Cause it's, I know for me, like okay, thinking about it like this, like I was a little kid, if you break something, but maybe it wasn't a loud crash, or a loud bang, so people couldn't see it, or actually hear it necessarily, you have a chance to cover it up, right?
- Yeah.
- But eventually, your parents are gonna see it. They're gonna find out, and you're gonna get in trouble for it.
- Right, the cover up is almost worse than the actual thing.
- Yeah, but if you know, if you have, say, a good relationship with your parents, or you feel comfortable enough to tell them, or you know it was truly an accident. You didn't break something because you were running around, doing something you weren't supposed to be doing, and you know there's no wrongdoing, then, my kids do this all the time. They know that they didn't do nothing wrong, so I'm gonna go tell my mom, "Oh mom, I was sitting here, and I watched this fall," or, "I was doing this and I was trying to grab this, "and this broke in half. "Here you go, I don't when anyone to get hurt," you know? So for me it's just like the way that I processed it is that if you know you didn't do anything wrong, you would be more forthcoming with both information and answers. You wouldn't be basically just circling around, "Pierce County Sheriff's Department is investigating this. "This is an ongoing investigation. "Please refer to I940." Like, so you're telling me that other police officers get to investigate other police officers wrongdoing, and it's up to the other police officers to determine if them killing him, which they said, "Yeah, he died in our care. "We did that, but now we have to determine if it's justifiable or not." How do you justify killing someone who says they can't breathe?
- Right.
- How do you justify killing someone who says that, or not even says, but appears as if, 'cause it's what the article says, appears as if they needed medical attention because they're experiencing excited delirium? As a trained professional, especially because Tacoma Police Department has all these trainings, right? They have all of these things that they're taught, de-escalation techniques and medical care for whoever is experiencing an episode of psychosis, excited delirium, hallucinations, whatever, adrenaline rush, I don't care. You're trained. You're a trained professional who knows how to handle these types of situations. And you know if you were able to spot that right on, like you said, he ran up to your car going probably 35, 40 miles an hour, and hit your car, then why wasn't the first thing that you called in was, "Hey we need medical aid asap"? You're a first responder, but you can't provide medical aid to him like they could. So, I mean, just from the beginning, why didn't you do that? Why didn't you set yourself up for success so that in the event if something like this did happen, at least you had yourself covered, right?
- Right.
- And I mean, if you didn't do anything wrong, as a police department because you guys back each other, if you didn't do anything wrong, why not reach out to the family and express condolences, or apologies, or how sorry you were? That you wished that it didn't have to happen. Why not make some type of contact or say something?
- Right, because at this point, there are three policing authorities, Washington State Patrol, Pierce County Sheriff, and Tacoma police. Nobody has expressed any condolences or sentiment.
- We don't even have a case number. We have an incident number. No case number. We have an incident number. Our case is still open and pending.
- Haven't even seen a police report.
- Yep, no police report, no toxicology.
- For some reason there's no video with the police.
- Yeah, no video.
- And when you've asked for these things, or have you asked for these things?
- Yeah.
- And what was the response?
- And so, we got the, we were told by our lawyer that she's been able to put them on notice and say we've retained this person to represent Manny. But she said that it's just taking a really long time to get the information and that--
- And then again, even though, I mean, I grant you I know it's another county and another state, but with the whole thing with George Floyd is a span of three days when officer--
- Usually when someone pulls out their phone to record a death in police custody, or a murder, in my eyes, in police custody, usually you get your information, and all of it in a week.
- Yeah.
- But, flat out, they were able to get a report, the family, they were able to get a report, a police report, they were able to get a autopsy report.
- Right, the Floyd family?
- Yeah, and it was only 24 hours.
- Yeah.
- It's been 12 weeks.
- So this case, it has gone from no attention to suddenly a great deal of attention. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that the medical examiner says it's a homicide. And of course in this time with what has happened to George Floyd, there's gonna be more tension on police departments there. And then, Tacoma's mayor gets involved and demands action. She has really just grabbed this and said, "Hey we need to look into this," right?
- Yes, and she's had some very, very strong words. She has called, again, as you iterated. She has called for the firing of these four officers. I mean, I don't think you can say it any stronger than that. That being said, though, we talk about how much attention this has gotten because of the medical examiner's report. The medical examiner's report was released May 11th. As of the recording of the show, today, this is June 5th. This sparks the wildfire, if you will, sparks June 3rd. So there was still a delay between a reaction to this and in speaking to the Ellis family, I know a lot of them feel that the only reason that this has gotten the attention it has gotten, especially locally, is the fact that there's elected officials who quite frankly want to cover their, for lack of a better term, cover their ass. And then also, they see what has gone on with the riots and unrest in places like Chicago, and New Orleans, and Washington, DC. And we know here in Seattle, that there has been, especially at the Cal Anderson Park protest, there has been quite a level of unrest that they want to avoid. And so, they want to try to now do all that they can, at least certainly, that's the feeling, sentiment of a lot of the Ellis family is that local officials want to do all that they can to avoid some things, a huge mass unrest, as we've seen in other cities.
- They want to get ahead of it. There is a storm that we've already been hit hard by the protests and the people that have gotten out of control at various times. They want to make sure they can stay ahead of this one.
- Just one more thing, Enrique, and I know you and I have spoken about this off air, but look at the George Floyd situation, right? There a video tape emerges of the police officer with his knee on his neck. In the span of less than a week, all four officers are publicly identified. All four officers are fired from the police department. All four officers are charged. Compare that with this case of Manuel Ellis. It's 104 days, 104 days before public officials speak out about this, and I'm talking about public officials like the governor and the Tacoma mayor. And 104 days until the four police officers are identified, and put on administrative leave. Those are the facts, and people can make of them what they will.
- And that is a point that we heard from Monet, the sister, saying, again, why has this taken so long? And all of that time. Let's listen to Monet again, as she talks here about just trying to get someone to help, and what she wants to happen here in the long run.
- How do you push forward?
- I don't know. I really don't, like I really don't know, I know that. The only thing that I have been doing is just seeking out help, talking about it to everybody and anyone that wants to listen. I keep hitting the share button. Share, share, share, share, share. Send, send, send, send, like nonstop to anyone and everyone that I could think of. I know that it's probably just keeping me busy, 'cause when, like honestly, I don't like watching images of other Black people being--
- Yeah, same here. like hurt, killed, in way. It's very traumatic for me. So when I scroll past, but then I just kept scrolling past. Like I've slowly been, then once I saw him on the ground, I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no." But then when we turned on the news, and then I'm seeing all this stuff, I'm not the type of person to watch a video, like maybe listening to something. I'm going to try to do something .
- Yeah, yeah.
- So then when I typed in his name, and seeing what was reported, and all this stuff, I was just like, "They did the same thing to my brother, "except it wasn't on video." As far as a someone, a Black man saying, "I can't breathe," and then you don't let up.
- Right, right.
- 'Cause that's really the point. You can't say you feared for your life because he was unarmed. 'Cause that's what you usually do when there is multiple officers.
- Well, we know he was handcuffed too.
- Yeah, and my brother was handcuffed as well. He was subdued.
- Yeah, that's what we reported.
- Yeah, they both were, actually. So that's why I'm like, "It's very, very, very, similar, very similar."
- What does justice look like for you? What do you want when all this is over?
- I don't want it to happen again. I can't say that it won't but I want to make sure that, especially here in Tacoma, we have more accountability and more things put in place so that it doesn't have to happen again. I have children. I have five kids. I have four Black sons. I have Black cousins. I have Black uncles. I have Black nephews. My brother that's still living is black. So just as easy as it happened to Manny, now I know for sure that it could happen to any and every one of them. And I don't want that to happen again.
- And not just here, obviously, but anywhere.
- I want it everywhere, but I know that sometimes it could start out small, and then turn into something a lot bigger.
- Do you think that if Tacoma Police had the body cameras, like Seattle Police, things might have been different?
- Facts.
- Yeah, they're way different.
- 'Cause then you want to know something? That's just like if they know that I'm watching them, or I'm here, they know that they can't, if I'm paying attention to them, they know they can't do anything out of line 'cause they know they're gonna get in trouble for it, right?
- Exactly.
- Just like me. I know that, or not me, but any person. We know that if we go out and we commit such an act, we could go to jail for a long time. We may have to pay a bunch of money back. We could lose our jobs, everything that we worked for. Just as regular civilians, right? We know this.
- Well let's hope that the family gets the answers that they're looking for. It's been ruled a homicide, so they obviously want justice. I guess the big question now is that if it's a homicide, who's at fault, how did it happen, and trying to get some clarity there. Interesting that the Tacoma Police Union has come out objecting to what the mayor said calling for the firing of the officers. I don't think they complained about having an independent investigation. And maybe in a way, she's looking to take it out of the hands of the Pierce County Sheriff's Department because there's a concern there about they're too close.
- Right. And it's been in their hands for the last 90 days, and you see what its, you see the result, right? So, I mean, at this point, we have a large enough sample size that we can say, maybe it is better if there's an independent investigation at this point.
- Right.
- And I also just want to bring up too, Enrique. Think, it's hard for me not to think about all that had to transpire in order for this to get the attention and quite frankly, just to be investigated in the manner that it should've always been investigated. And it just kind of made me wonder, again, what happens when there isn't any videotape? What happens when there isn't any civic unrest? How many other Manuel Ellises are there across the country, who have, black and brown people across the country who this has happened to, and yet their story isn't told. And they're, there's incidents around there, their death isn't investigated? How many more people are there out there? To be quite frank with you, this has just been very disconcerting.
- So, I take it that the Emerald will be continuing to cover this story? You'll be writing a piece people will be able to read in "The South Seattle Emerald," detailing much of what we've talked about today?
- We certainly will. We will also be, of course, following this story on this very podcast.
- That's right. Marcus Harrison Green. Good reporting, good work.
- Thank you, Enrique.
- "Life on the Margins" is a co-production of "The South Seattle Emerald," and "Town Hall Seattle." Our music is courtesy of Seattle Artist, Draze. Our producers are Jeff Shaw and Hans Anderson. If you have a topic you think you want us to cover, or you want to give us some feedback, call and leave a message for us at 206-606-0222. I'm Enrique Cerna for Marcus Harrison Green. Stay safe, be well, we'll talk more later. ♪ I was born in the Central District ♪ ♪ Raised in the south scene ♪ ♪ I'm a home-grown kid, yep ♪ ♪ 206 Living ♪ ♪ Used to play Flyers Up when I lived up on Union ♪ ♪ Pushed it out to walk us ♪ ♪ And eventually the Kenyon's ♪ ♪ Didn't have much ♪ ♪ But thankful for all we was given ♪ ♪ It was our hood until Weed & Seed crept in ♪ ♪ And the Blacks went naked ♪ ♪ And gentrification came golf for Franklin ♪ ♪ Robberies ain't even the same ♪ ♪ Mark my words ♪ ♪ It gonna be white boy ♪